Relógios Militares — Sempre às ordens

Miguel escreveu:Venho pedir a opinião aqui da malta!
Faço os possíveis para aumentar os exemplares da minha coleção.
Não ligo tanto às marcas, mas à história e detalhes individuais de cada modelo.

Ando à uns tempos para comprar um cronógrafo vintage, dos anos 1940/1950 (quanto mais antigo melhor).
Infelizmente os preços pedidos não andam nada jeitosos... Ainda andei a ver uns Cauny mas não são bem o que procuro.

Aqui há dias encontrei este modelo, o que pelo design bastante único da caixa me cativou.
Tem 40mm e gosto dos detalhes no bezel. A caixa apresenta detalhes dos anos 40/45 e o mostrador tem estilo dos anos 50.
O movimento é um Lemania.
Não está em perfeitas condições, mas pelo preço e estando a funcionar parece-me ser uma boa oportunidade.

Alguém tem opiniões sobre este tipo de modelos?
Em que faixa de preços marcas genéricas com este calibre mecânico "valem"?
Qual a fiabilidade destes mecanismos ao fim de tantas décadas?

Essa caixa não é daí, é muito grande para essa máquina. É uma adaptação. A máquina era de uma caixa em ouro que foi derretida.

A não ser que seja quase dado (a máquina, embora não pareça em grandes condições, tem sempre peças que podem ser úteis), eu deixava passar.

Não que seja exactamente militar mas, pronto, achei que ficava bem aqui:

altc escreveu:Não que seja exactamente militar mas, pronto, achei que ficava bem aqui:

Landeron?

bladerunner68 escreveu:

altc escreveu:Não que seja exactamente militar mas, pronto, achei que ficava bem aqui:

Landeron?

Landeron 52, penso eu

Bem antiguinho em com espiral Breguet.. "ganda máquina"..

bladerunner68 escreveu:Bem antiguinho em com espiral Breguet.. "ganda máquina"..

Estes e os Cal.39 foram grandes calibres que rivalizavam com qualquer outro existente na altura... pena que a Landeron se tenha virado depois para os low cost 48 e 248

altc escreveu:
Essa caixa não é daí, é muito grande para essa máquina. É uma adaptação. A máquina era de uma caixa em ouro que foi derretida.
A não ser que seja quase dado (a máquina, embora não pareça em grandes condições, tem sempre peças que podem ser úteis), eu deixava passar.

Acabei por efetivamente deixar passar. Vou entar atento a novas oportunidades que apareçam.
Obrigado pelo feedback!

nmfl escreveu:E (finalmente) chegou o meu G10, que estreia aqui no tópico dos militares. É o relógio a que muitos chamam o "field watch definitivo"... Será? Para já, estou a gostar muito dele.

Terá de levar um toque de Polywatch no acrílico, que tem umas pequenas marcas que não se viam nas fotos do vendedor. De resto está impecável e quase novo. Algo curioso, tendo em conta os 13 anos de idade, é que o trítio ainda está bastante ativo, com uma força maior até do que alguns relógios com o "lume" estimulado.

Já teve direito a umas fotos. Aqui no "test drive" de pulseiras Nato...



A escolha de caixa...



E a foto com o "meio-irmão" mecânico. É um contraponto interessante ao Khaki Field: tão iguais e tão diferentes.

Boa, parabens @nmfl, bom achado! São relogios simples mas que tem um certo carácter que gosto bastante. Aproveita-o!

Ainda de volta dos G10 (estou à espera de um, não resisti ) encontrei estes artigos muito interessantes relacionados com a história dos relógios militares britânicos:
https://anordain.com/blogs/news/100-years-of-british-military-watches
https://anordain.com/blogs/news/100-years-of-british-military-watches-part-2
https://anordain.com/blogs/news/100-years-of-british-military-watches-part-3

Obrigado @m84

Não te vais arrepender, @Tempus fugit - apesar de quartzo, é um relógio com uma "alma" e uma qualidade incríveis.

Bom dia.

Hoje ao ler dois artigos antigos do colega @m84 (https://dezdez.forumeiros.com/t68-visita-ao-museu-do-relogio-fotorreportagem , https://dezdez.forumeiros.com/t723-a-aquastar-e-a-marinha-de-guerra-portuguesa)onde se fala de um relógio distribuído pela marinha portuguesa aos fuzileiros.

Fiquei curioso. Conhecem mais casos destes? De relógios que tenham sido distribuídos pelo estado às forças armadas.

Obrigado.

Existem algumas edições especiais feitas pela SRI para a Marinha e Força Aérea (https://www.sri.pt/edicoesEspeciais.html) e um Albatross da Esquadra 502 (https://www.thegentleman.pt/2015/01/nas-asas-tempo/), mas duvido que o estado tenha financiado alguma delas

SquareWatch escreveu:Bom dia.

Hoje ao ler dois artigos antigos do colega @m84 (https://dezdez.forumeiros.com/t68-visita-ao-museu-do-relogio-fotorreportagem , https://dezdez.forumeiros.com/t723-a-aquastar-e-a-marinha-de-guerra-portuguesa)onde se fala de um relógio distribuído pela marinha portuguesa aos fuzileiros.

Fiquei curioso. Conhecem mais casos destes? De relógios que tenham sido distribuídos pelo estado às forças armadas.

Obrigado.

Isso é uma coisa que também gostava de saber mais! Mas tenho poucas dúvidas que possam ter havido mais casos destes para as forças armada portuguesas. Alias, mesmo nesse caso da Aquastar a minha pesquisa indica que foram apenas para os mergulhadores e mesmo esses eram poucos...

Mais, peço a quem possa ter mais informação, direta ou indireta sobre este tema que entre em contacto comigo. Especialmente se for sobre relógios existentes!

Sirines Extra, cal. Unitas 148, circa 1940s

Bem bonito esse ultimo Sirines. É pequenote, não?

m84 escreveu:Bem bonito esse ultimo Sirines. É pequenote, não?

Tem 32 mm de caixa, é um concentrado de beleza

Cá esta um militar raro e com um calibre que aprecio muito , o AS 984..

Agora um "trench "... PRESCOTT, AS 1130..

No próximo Sábado dia 16/11 em Londres vão a leião uma verdadeira coleção de referencia para os amantes de relógios militares..

Completa com os 12 condenados todos impec..

Deixo o link da leiloeira caso algum membro do forúm queira fazer um "bid"..

https://watchesofknightsbridge.com/

bladerunner68 escreveu:No próximo Sábado dia 16/11 em Londres vão a leião uma verdadeira coleção de referencia para os amantes de relógios militares..

Completa com os 12 condenados todos impec..

Deixo o link da leiloeira caso algum membro do forúm queira fazer um "bid"..      

https://watchesofknightsbridge.com/

sem dúvida muito interessante! E se formos dividir o preço pelos 12 até nem deve estar muito fora do 'habitual' (claro que há modelos bem mais caros que outros...)

É um oportunidade quase única para alguém com verdadeiro interesse. Ao mesmo tempo, também acho que ao comprar a coleção, perde-se a oportunidade da experiência de os colecionar em si — que sabemos é uma grande parte deste hobby.

Interessante!

Eu tenho este em minha casa a uns tempos acredito que seja verdadeiro de bolso WEST END WATCH Co.
Swiss Made
Eu ja tinha visto que esta marca era utilizada por militares Indianos

O relógio que vos trago não será 100% militar, mas anda lá perto
Pulsar Chronograph Y182-7D00 Pilot watch, circa 2000s

Pois, vou ter de deixar aqui também o meu Waltham, até era uma ofensa para ele se não o fizesse!





Com um pouquinho de história dele retirada de um site da net que agora não me lembro, as minhas desculpas ao autor, seja quem for!

History of the A-11 Watch

When World War Two-era watches are mentioned, many people think immediately of high-quality German-made B-Uhren and chronographs. But it was a comparatively small,

unobtrusive, mass-produced American watch, the so-called "A-11", which has a claim to fame of having made a crucial contribution to the Allied victory in that war.
This is the watch that kept the United States Army Air Forces as well as the Navy and Marine Corps flying, and - to a lesser extent - the RAF (under the 6B/234 designation), the RCAF and even the Soviet Air Force. The A-11 was there when Germany was bombed and the World War II in Europe was turned around, when the war in the Pacific ended in the first - and so far only - nuclear explosions in anger occurred, and when the monumental effort of the Berlin Airlift turned erstwhile foes into friends and allies, and handed the Soviets the first resounding defeat of the incipient Cold War which their political system, and their empire, would not survive. The A-11 was superseded at some time - usually the Korean War is given as a time reference - by the all-lumed A-17.

The A-11 was not so much a specific watch model but a production standard used by a number of watch companies (Elgin, Bulova, and Waltham), with numerous case and minor dial/hands variations (there were even silver-cased watches, as nickel was considered a metal more critical for the war effort!), though some design aspects were largely universal: Black dial; white hands; a handwound hacking movement with center second hand, hour numbers from 1 to 12; a second scale with smaller minute/second numbers in increments of 10 on the outside edge of the dial; and same-type minute and hour hands. Several A-11 versions featured a characteristic coin-edge bezel and caseback. Some were dustproof, others were waterproof.

There are several design elements of the A-11 which are still present in today's US military issued watches, viz. the full 1-12 numerals, and the preference for the same type of minute and hour hands. Even the basic accuracy requirement for the A-11 (30 seconds per day at room temperature) is still the same for todays American mechanical military watches!

Elgin, Waltham and Bulova all made the A-11 from 1941 on. Hamilton, then the leading US watch maker, made a similar type of watch which was not subsumed under the A-11 designation, though the watches were very similar. Lumed versions of the A-11 were produced as well, as were occasional white-dialed versions. The USAAFs version was marked with the U.S. Army specification no. 94-27834, or its subsequent iterations 94-27834-A (2 November 1942) and 94-27834-B (22 February 1943). The U.S. Navy's Bureau of Aeronautics specified lumed dial and hands for their version of the A-11; the watches were marked FSSC 88-W-800

While previous to the A-11 designation some issued watches were made with white dials, this changed after 1942 to the black dial version that is better known. Any white-dialed watch would be issued prior to the A-11 specification, most likely in 1941.

There were at least three A-11 versions made. As mentioned, Elgin, Waltham and Bulova made various incarnations of this classic watch, but the "official" version is the Elgin, as documented in TM 9-1575 from the War Department. This is the ordnance maintenance guide for wrist watches, pocket watches, stop watches and clocks, from 6 April 1945.

The A-11 movement is an 8/0 size: what does this mean? It's in terms of the Lancashire gauge, and refers to a caliber that is 23.71mm in diameter, and the slash refers to a watch that is smaller than a 0 gauge watch movement: in this case, a watch that is 28/30th of an inch in size (hence the 8/0 reference). This isn't the first Elgin military watch: the others were 7 and 15 jewel movements with sub-second dials, and there were at least one "canteen" style watch made with the same 16-jewel movement for the US Bureau of Naval Shipping that were amongst the first diver watches out there.

Now here's a point which is somewhat unclear. The 8/0 movement that goes into the A-11 was to be a 16-jewel movement, but where did they get that number? Further, what about all those A-11s out there with 15-jewel movements?

According to the TM 9-1575, it is a 16-jewel movement. The other A-11s with 15-jewels, though, aren't necessarily fakes: it just that they may have had a field-expedient replacement (i.e. the movement was replaced by a 15-jewel engraved movement that has had the pinion bridge added to that) or there may be some other, undetermined reason. But what's the key attributes of the movement that make it unique?

Well, first and more fundamentally it's a watch with a sweep seconds hand that also hacks. The exact model of the Elgin movement is a 1783 model, grade 539. Elgin pocket watch movements were generally graded according to different degrees of finishing and quality, and hence this odd designation. It's generally just called the 539 movement.

The addition of the sweep second hand meant that a hollow center wheel pinion was added to the watch with a sweep second pinion bridge and an upper third wheel. The barrel bridge was drilled and tapped so that the pinion bridge could be added. The third wheel pinion was longer to accommodate the upper third wheel.

But what is the base movement then? It's the 15-jewel movement that was used in other Elgin military wrist-watches.

This is what the TM 9-1575 has to say: Three Elgin models have been issued, all 8/0 size, having 7, 15 or 16 jewels. The 7- and 15-jewel standard watches are the same in construction, the difference being in the number of jewels and the ordnance markings on the exterior back of the case. The 7-jewel has the markings "OD" before the serial number, and the standard 15-jewel has the prefix "OC" before the serial number (nb: my copy of the manual has a pencil-written correction to this reversing the designations...). The 16-jewel (Hack) Type A 11 differs from the standard Elgin wrist watch in that it is equipped with a waterproof case, a sweep second hand and a black dial. Although they are normally issued to the Air Corps as a navigation watch, some have been issued, however, to ground troops. The ordnance marker has the prefix "OFA" before the serial number. ... The hour dials are graduated in minutes and Arabic numerals indicate the hours. The second dial orbits are graduated in seconds, with 10-second divisions indicated by numerals. The hour numerals and the hour, minute and sweep second hands are coated with a radium luminous material for night use. The second hands are all of blued steel.

The movement that was in the Elgin military watches is hence always the 1783 movement, but with differing grades. The movement with the sub-seconds was the 554 and forms the basis for the 539 movement: as mentioned, the sweep central second was added. The dial differs only in that the markings of the seconds are not around the sub-dial, but around the rim of the watch dial, marked at 10-second divisions. The upper third wheel drove the sweep seconds hand directly from the back of the movement. The 16th jewel, from what I can see, is in the the sweep seconds pinion bridge.

There are two important aspects to the movement: first: it hacks. The hacking is interesting because the Elgin hacking entails that the balance wheel is mechanically stopped from swinging back and forth in order to stop the movement of the seconds hand in order to synchronize the watch with a known time source (which was usually either a squadron chronometer or some equally high-quality movement, or may simply have been the squadron's commander's watch so that everyone was using the same time). From what I've been able to glean, the Bulova and Waltham hacking movements used a piece of metal to stop the third wheel instead.

Second, it is a high-quality movement that was as good as any movement put into an American military watch. The 16 jewels underscore this.

The dial is black, with very high visibility white-on-black numbers and graduations; the hands are also designed for high visibility, with a clearly smaller and wider hour hand, a longer and significantly slimmer minutes hand, and a long and thin constant width central sweep seconds hand. The design doesn't have any particular flair or a particularly aesthetic layout, but is simple and designed for easy reading of the time.

Now, the Bulova version of the A-11: this was the watch that was issued by the British as the Mark VIII, with an A. Schild SA Cal. 1238 movement (10.5'''), which while basically a Swiss movement was actually built in the US by Bulova as the cal. 10AKCSH, which also resulted in the lack of "Swiss Made" on the dial. The name can be parsed so: cal. 10AK, CS = center sweep, H=hack.

The case here was chrome-plated base metal with a screw-on stainless steel back, and there was an inner magnetic cover made of Invar, which is an iron-nickel-carbon-chromium alloy. This movement also hacks and is also a 16-jewel movement that mirrors the Elgin movement transformation of a 15-jewel movement with sub-seconds to one with a central sweep second via a new pinion bridge. The bridge here also attaches to the mainspring bridge.

The Waltham version used a 6/0 size movement, i.e. one 26/30th of an inch in size, based on a 15-jewel movement (cal. 884?), but with the addition of the central seconds via the additional pinion bridge the jewel count goes to 16 as well. Given that the movement was smaller, so were the cases as well, despite their belonging to the same specification!

Fundamentally, the mechanical side of the A-11 included really only two criteria: the addition of the sweep second via a pinion bridge and modifications, and the hacking mechanism. Elgin, Bulova and Waltham did the details slightly differently, but all fulfilled the fundamental demand: create a mass-production, good quality mechanism to power literally hundreds of thousands of watches with minimal costs and a high degree of functionality and readability.

It was indeed the wristwatch that helped win the war!

O projecto no Kickstarter da nova vida para o Timor WW2, esta muito bem lançado pois ainda falta quase 1 mes e ja atingiu 87% dos fundos.. Um projecto interessante a seguir.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/timorwatch/timor-heritage-field?utm_source=Timor&utm_campaign=dea176b0ed-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_KS_FEB_2020_13_53&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_088b22d0d2-dea176b0ed-297736305

indeed